Homeowners weigh in on trailhead

Posted on March 11th, 2010 by Michael McKisson (Publisher/Editor)

Several homeowners along Catalina Highway attended the Tucson Pima County Bicycle Advisory Committee meeting to voice their opinions about the proposed trailhead.

The discussion between the homeowners and members of the TPCBAC became increasingly heated.

Homeowners said they had been assured by Pima County and Ray Carroll’s office that the trailhead was not going to proceed at the original site and questioned whether TPCBAC intended to pursue it.

TPCBAC President, Brian Beck, told the homeowners that his understanding was that they could proceed with the original location if they gained the support of the residents in the area.

Mark Acosta, a homeowner in the area, said neighbors would never support the project.

Despite the obvious opposition from the homeowners at the meeting, the TPCBAC passed a motion to create a temporary subcommittee tasked with establishing a public meeting about the trailhead and alerting the residents in the area.

“Don’t waste your time,” Val Colbertson said. “Everybody I spoke to that night was against it. We aren’t going to change our minds is what I am trying to tell you.”

Beck said regardless of whether or not homeowners and cyclists can come to an agreement about the trailhead, the meeting would be a valuable educational experience for future projects.

Emergency meeting called to discuss increasing Bike Boulevard priority

Gabriel Thum from the Pima Association of Governments led a presentation about the impact of bicycle boulevards and asked the TPCBAC to increase the priority of bicycle boulevards in the RTA plan.

According to Thum, bike boulevards were not popular when the RTA fund was created, but have become very popular in the last few years. In the RTA plan, they are not given the same priority as bike lanes, shared-use paths and sidewalks, which makes it more difficult to fund them.

Thum asked the committee members to increase the priority of the bike boulevards so they would be on an equal level to the other facilities when the RTA looks at where to spend money designated for bike and pedestrian projects.

Committee members did not feel they could make a decision on the bike boulevards last night and passed a motion to schedule an emergency meeting on March 24, to revisit the topic.

I am planning on writing a piece about bike boulevards and how they currently get funded in the city. Look for that next week.

Related posts:

Post a comment below or discuss in the Tucson Velo forums

Posted on March 11th, 2010 by Michael McKisson (Publisher/Editor)

http://www.bicyclestockimages.com/ Martha Retallick

My live/work space is very close to the planned route of the 4th Avenue Bicycle Boulevard.

Around here, the boulevard has widespread support. Part of the reason is that there are a lot of people who use their bikes to get around. Some also use them for athletic purposes.

So, there will be a built-in user base right here in this neighborhood. The 4th Avenue Bicycle Boulevard won’t be a staging place for others who come into our area for their bicycling amusements.

Another part of the reason for the widespread support is because the City of Tucson made quite an effort to communicate with us. There were several meetings at the Northwest Center, and I can recall attending at least one. These meetings were well attended, and the city officials made informative presentations.
http://www.bicyclestockimages.com Martha Retallick

My live/work space is very close to the planned route of the 4th Avenue Bicycle Boulevard.

Around here, the boulevard has widespread support. Part of the reason is that there are a lot of people who use their bikes to get around. Some also use them for athletic purposes.

So, there will be a built-in user base right here in this neighborhood. The 4th Avenue Bicycle Boulevard won’t be a staging place for others who come into our area for their bicycling amusements.

Another part of the reason for the widespread support is because the City of Tucson made quite an effort to communicate with us. There were several meetings at the Northwest Center, and I can recall attending at least one. These meetings were well attended, and the city officials made informative presentations.
http://clockoutclickin.typepad.com/blog/ Mary R

Martha makes an excellent point about people who ride bikes supporting bike boulevards in their own neighborhoods. A better use of TPCBAC time and energy would be finding a different bike trailhead location, not making presentations to hard-headed NIMBY residents. Perhaps TPCBAC could also find a new spine for Ray Carroll. Meanwhile, people can continue to park at the shopping centers at Catalina Highway and Tanque Verde, and have a nice warm-up before they hit the steep road at Milepost zero.
http://clockoutclickin.typepad.com/blog/ Mary R

Martha makes an excellent point about people who ride bikes supporting bike boulevards in their own neighborhoods. A better use of TPCBAC time and energy would be finding a different bike trailhead location, not making presentations to hard-headed NIMBY residents. Perhaps TPCBAC could also find a new spine for Ray Carroll. Meanwhile, people can continue to park at the shopping centers at Catalina Highway and Tanque Verde, and have a nice warm-up before they hit the steep road at Milepost zero.
Red Star

“Emergency meeting called to discuss increasing Bike Boulevard priority”

“Gabriel Thum from the Pima Association of Governments led a presentation about the impact of bicycle boulevards and asked the TPCBAC to increase the priority of bicycle boulevards in the RTA plan.” (Tucson Velo, this date)

Are we talking about bicycle boulevards or “segregated cycle facilities” (at: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bicycle_lanes ) ? Or some appropriate mix of the two? Yes, there is siloing at wikipedia, but that doesn’t mean we shouldn’t be clear about what is under consideration or advocated.

Red Star urges that segregated cycle facilities be incorporated to the trolley implementation…it just makes sense to do that if the streets are going to be torn up anyway…

As an aside, all of this is against the backdrop of a low income city that can’t fix potholes (even though a wet winter was predicted last spring/summer) and a county that may be forced by the state to fund incarceration and who knows what else to ensure the re-election of Frank Antenori. So, one would expect voter difficulty with actually implementing these plans because of … of potholes.

As Fidel put it, “It’s not just because he didn’t invite me to dinner, but because on my way into town from the airport there were such enormous potholes.”

Cuban President Fidel Castro, explaining why he would not vote for New York City Mayor Rudy Giuliani (1995)

Ahem, but still…
Red Star

“Emergency meeting called to discuss increasing Bike Boulevard priority”

“Gabriel Thum from the Pima Association of Governments led a presentation about the impact of bicycle boulevards and asked the TPCBAC to increase the priority of bicycle boulevards in the RTA plan.” (Tucson Velo, this date)

Are we talking about bicycle boulevards or “segregated cycle facilities” (at: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bicycle_lanes ) ? Or some appropriate mix of the two? Yes, there is siloing at wikipedia, but that doesn’t mean we shouldn’t be clear about what is under consideration or advocated.

Red Star urges that segregated cycle facilities be incorporated to the trolley implementation…it just makes sense to do that if the streets are going to be torn up anyway…

As an aside, all of this is against the backdrop of a low income city that can’t fix potholes (even though a wet winter was predicted last spring/summer) and a county that may be forced by the state to fund incarceration and who knows what else to ensure the re-election of Frank Antenori. So, one would expect voter difficulty with actually implementing these plans because of … of potholes.

As Fidel put it, “It’s not just because he didn’t invite me to dinner, but because on my way into town from the airport there were such enormous potholes.”

Cuban President Fidel Castro, explaining why he would not vote for New York City Mayor Rudy Giuliani (1995)

Ahem, but still…
Coghauler

Valid and well-reasoned points were made concerning
the funding status of Bike Boulevards at the meeting.
Most of the information about the funding of bike
boulevards was new to most of the BAC members.
It doesn’t seem like any members of the BAC are
against bike boulevards. Many questioned the need
to raise the funding status weighed against bicycle
facilities that are of proven benefit and are part of an
on-going plan.
A comprehensive presentation was given summarizing
Tucson’s current cycling position and questioning what
that position might morph into within the next 20 years.
This is the DILEMMA: Urban planners seeking advice from
those that DO about what is appropriate to accommodate
those who MIGHT. What are the limits that one group’s
bias will allow it to go within the bounds of restricted
resources to result in an envisioned, functional system
for the future? It was good that they scheduled an extra
meeting to sort it out. It is bad that more of those that
MIGHT won’t be prepared and present to contribute to
a balance of the vision.
Coghauler

Valid and well-reasoned points were made concerning
the funding status of Bike Boulevards at the meeting.
Most of the information about the funding of bike
boulevards was new to most of the BAC members.
It doesn’t seem like any members of the BAC are
against bike boulevards. Many questioned the need
to raise the funding status weighed against bicycle
facilities that are of proven benefit and are part of an
on-going plan.
A comprehensive presentation was given summarizing
Tucson’s current cycling position and questioning what
that position might morph into within the next 20 years.
This is the DILEMMA: Urban planners seeking advice from
those that DO about what is appropriate to accommodate
those who MIGHT. What are the limits that one group’s
bias will allow it to go within the bounds of restricted
resources to result in an envisioned, functional system
for the future? It was good that they scheduled an extra
meeting to sort it out. It is bad that more of those that
MIGHT won’t be prepared and present to contribute to
a balance of the vision.
Tucson Velo

I took video of the presentation and am trying to get it online, but my camera isn’t cooperating at the moment.

Hopefully I can transfer it soon.
Tucson Velo

I took video of the presentation and am trying to get it online, but my camera isn’t cooperating at the moment.

Hopefully I can transfer it soon.
Mark NIMBY

I attended the meeting last night. I chose to sit and just listen to what everyone
thought. It was very clear that the intentions of this club is not to pursue another
site. I understand that you have 40k worth of investment and fundraising is not easy. However, if everyone involved would have been upfront about this project and made sure homeowners were contacted, you could have saved your time and effort. By the way. Just because “you can” does not necessarily make it right.
The meeting was very informative. I did not realize the millions of dollars allocated to cyclist paid for by the taxpayers for road,paths & greenbelts. You are a big group and well represented. I would think that all that is done for cyclist that you would be more than happy to relocate if it’s means that a homeowner can enjoy their home as intended.
Mark NIMBY

I attended the meeting last night. I chose to sit and just listen to what everyone
thought. It was very clear that the intentions of this club is not to pursue another
site. I understand that you have 40k worth of investment and fundraising is not easy. However, if everyone involved would have been upfront about this project and made sure homeowners were contacted, you could have saved your time and effort. By the way. Just because “you can” does not necessarily make it right.
The meeting was very informative. I did not realize the millions of dollars allocated to cyclist paid for by the taxpayers for road,paths & greenbelts. You are a big group and well represented. I would think that all that is done for cyclist that you would be more than happy to relocate if it’s means that a homeowner can enjoy their home as intended.
Coghauler

The Tucson-Pima County Bicycle Advisory Committee
has no money invested in this project.
It has no money, period.
It is not a club.
It is a group of representatives from the city and
surrounding Pima County communities
formed by the Mayor and Council to advise
city and county staff in matters pertaining to
bicycle-related transportation interests.
You inferred incorrectly, Mr. NIMBY, that the goal
of this project was to destroy the value and quality
of life for near-by residents. Cyclists are just looking
for a place to park and have no indication that this site
will be the only problematic ‘trailhead ‘ in the county.
I am sure the task force will want to verify your fears,
if they are real. I hope the rule of law will prevail against
the adult tantrum-based viscera, if they are not.
Coghauler

The Tucson-Pima County Bicycle Advisory Committee
has no money invested in this project.
It has no money, period.
It is not a club.
It is a group of representatives from the city and
surrounding Pima County communities
formed by the Mayor and Council to advise
city and county staff in matters pertaining to
bicycle-related transportation interests.
You inferred incorrectly, Mr. NIMBY, that the goal
of this project was to destroy the value and quality
of life for near-by residents. Cyclists are just looking
for a place to park and have no indication that this site
will be the only problematic ‘trailhead ‘ in the county.
I am sure the task force will want to verify your fears,
if they are real. I hope the rule of law will prevail against
the adult tantrum-based viscera, if they are not.
Mark A. NIMBY

I apologize for my behavior at the BAC meeting last night. All of this has left some folks in the neighborhood with a high degree of anxiety toward the bicycle community. Let me try to explain my point of view.

The legal description of the proposed site is “Catalina Madre IV Drainage Way”. It is a piece of property that was dedicated to Pima County as part of an agreement that removed some of the lots in the subdivision from the flood plain. It is still a part of the Catalina Madre Subdivision. It is also still subject to Catalina Madre deed restrictions and Pima County zoning restrictions. It is not simply a piece of public property.

If you walk the piece of property and note the flags that define the area of desert that was to be removed it is immediately apparent that it is a large site. It’s large enough to park 14 cars with a turn around and a ramada. If you put a hole in the desert that large you are going to affect a lot of things. Do you really want to park there and have a view of the neighboring patio walls, yards and houses? As you ride up Catalina highway there are only a few places where the desert vegetation is dense enough that the houses are masked and you get a chance to possibly see some wildlife. There is a bobcat that lives on the site. She had two cubs last year that are hopefully still in the area. The neighbors can’t be the only ones that have a since of how much the proposed facility would change the atmosphere out here. You folks can’t see that? Do you care? Is it like the last post, you just want a place to park?

How are you going to safely get across the highway to start a ride? It is a portion of the highway with no traffic control device. If you live out here you occasionally see people coming off the mountain at a high rate of speed. They sometimes pass on the double yellow line or use the turn lane to pass. It just seems like if you add a bike facility and some extra traffic congestions to the mix it is an invitation for someone else to get hurt. The installation of a facility may also attract the novice rider to use a road that may be better suited to a more advanced rider. Again, in my opinion just another invitation for someone to get hurt.

The bike community has evidently spent $40,000 on the site. I don’t really understand how that could happen. The bike community seems like such a well oiled machine. You spent $40,000 on the design of a facility before you allowed any input whatsoever from the neighborhood where the facility was to be placed. Did you really believe that just because Matt Zoll said that “notification was not legally required” that it was the best way to proceed? Jean Gorman told the newspaper that she was hoping for the project to get further along before the public found out about it. The design was done, the desert was marked, permits were pulled and a construction bid was awarded before the neighborhood found out about it. How much further along should it have to go before neighborhood input? If Brian Beck and the BAC are looking for a learning experience from all of this, that might be a great place to start looking. If you want to make some folks in a neighborhood aggressive just keep telling them that legally you didn’t need to notify them. We all have a pretty big investment in the area as well. We bought homes here and we are raising our families here. To us it’s not just a place to park.

If you are just looking for a place to park there are plenty of available spots. There is a great parking area available at Emily Gray. It may even be closer to mile marker zero than the Catalina Madre IV Drainage Way. Take advantage of the new bike lanes on Melpomene. If you are looking for a warm up you could park at one of the shopping centers two miles away at Tanque Verde. If you want to start your ride on the mountain you could even stage at Molina Basin. There are plenty of places to park around here.
Mark A. NIMBY

I apologize for my behavior at the BAC meeting last night. All of this has left some folks in the neighborhood with a high degree of anxiety toward the bicycle community. Let me try to explain my point of view.

The legal description of the proposed site is “Catalina Madre IV Drainage Way”. It is a piece of property that was dedicated to Pima County as part of an agreement that removed some of the lots in the subdivision from the flood plain. It is still a part of the Catalina Madre Subdivision. It is also still subject to Catalina Madre deed restrictions and Pima County zoning restrictions. It is not simply a piece of public property.

If you walk the piece of property and note the flags that define the area of desert that was to be removed it is immediately apparent that it is a large site. It’s large enough to park 14 cars with a turn around and a ramada. If you put a hole in the desert that large you are going to affect a lot of things. Do you really want to park there and have a view of the neighboring patio walls, yards and houses? As you ride up Catalina highway there are only a few places where the desert vegetation is dense enough that the houses are masked and you get a chance to possibly see some wildlife. There is a bobcat that lives on the site. She had two cubs last year that are hopefully still in the area. The neighbors can’t be the only ones that have a since of how much the proposed facility would change the atmosphere out here. You folks can’t see that? Do you care? Is it like the last post, you just want a place to park?

How are you going to safely get across the highway to start a ride? It is a portion of the highway with no traffic control device. If you live out here you occasionally see people coming off the mountain at a high rate of speed. They sometimes pass on the double yellow line or use the turn lane to pass. It just seems like if you add a bike facility and some extra traffic congestions to the mix it is an invitation for someone else to get hurt. The installation of a facility may also attract the novice rider to use a road that may be better suited to a more advanced rider. Again, in my opinion just another invitation for someone to get hurt.

The bike community has evidently spent $40,000 on the site. I don’t really understand how that could happen. The bike community seems like such a well oiled machine. You spent $40,000 on the design of a facility before you allowed any input whatsoever from the neighborhood where the facility was to be placed. Did you really believe that just because Matt Zoll said that “notification was not legally required” that it was the best way to proceed? Jean Gorman told the newspaper that she was hoping for the project to get further along before the public found out about it. The design was done, the desert was marked, permits were pulled and a construction bid was awarded before the neighborhood found out about it. How much further along should it have to go before neighborhood input? If Brian Beck and the BAC are looking for a learning experience from all of this, that might be a great place to start looking. If you want to make some folks in a neighborhood aggressive just keep telling them that legally you didn’t need to notify them. We all have a pretty big investment in the area as well. We bought homes here and we are raising our families here. To us it’s not just a place to park.

If you are just looking for a place to park there are plenty of available spots. There is a great parking area available at Emily Gray. It may even be closer to mile marker zero than the Catalina Madre IV Drainage Way. Take advantage of the new bike lanes on Melpomene. If you are looking for a warm up you could park at one of the shopping centers two miles away at Tanque Verde. If you want to start your ride on the mountain you could even stage at Molina Basin. There are plenty of places to park around here.
http://zendudesmusic.blogspot.com/ Zen

I’m going to have to agree with Mark here. I live in a centrally located neighborhood and the house next door was sold to a eating disorder treatment center. The neighborhood took them to court but we lost because it is a medical facility and they can be located in areas zoned residential. The point is, they created a lot of resentment within the neighborhood. I don’t think we want that. We need to look for a win-win and not force this down anyone’s throat. It is a good idea to have a meeting with the neighbor’s but I think it needs to be approached from a position of learning ways that we can do better in the next location that is found. It is too bad that so much money was spent though.
http://zendudesmusic.blogspot.com/ Zen

I’m going to have to agree with Mark here. I live in a centrally located neighborhood and the house next door was sold to a eating disorder treatment center. The neighborhood took them to court but we lost because it is a medical facility and they can be located in areas zoned residential. The point is, they created a lot of resentment within the neighborhood. I don’t think we want that. We need to look for a win-win and not force this down anyone’s throat. It is a good idea to have a meeting with the neighbor’s but I think it needs to be approached from a position of learning ways that we can do better in the next location that is found. It is too bad that so much money was spent though.
jeff IYBY

NIMBY says there are “plenty” of available parking spots.
First, he lists a junior high school. Will public parking and coming & going be welcome during school hours?
Second he lists the bike lanes on Melpomene. To park on?
Third, he lists the shopping centers “two miles away at Tanque Verde”. Really, its five; but whats a few miles to the ravers?
Finally, he speaks of “Molina” Basin. Try “Molino”. Picky, picky; but the point is NIMBY just cannot get it right.
jeff IYBY

NIMBY says there are “plenty” of available parking spots.
First, he lists a junior high school. Will public parking and coming & going be welcome during school hours?
Second he lists the bike lanes on Melpomene. To park on?
Third, he lists the shopping centers “two miles away at Tanque Verde”. Really, its five; but whats a few miles to the ravers?
Finally, he speaks of “Molina” Basin. Try “Molino”. Picky, picky; but the point is NIMBY just cannot get it right.
Red Star

Red Star isn’t seeing the problem, if any, with putting the thing in Molino or even Prison Camp. Maybe it’s the US Forest Service…is that what it is? Just wondering; please advise. Thanks!
Red Star

Red Star isn’t seeing the problem, if any, with putting the thing in Molino or even Prison Camp. Maybe it’s the US Forest Service…is that what it is? Just wondering; please advise. Thanks!
Mark A. NIMBY

That’s funny. You are correct; NIMBY did get it all wrong. Molino Basin is on Mt Lemmon. Molina’s is a great place to eat lunch though. I typed “since” instead of “sense” too. Thanks for not pointing it out. Once you hit the submi button it’s too late.

There are some nice big mesquite trees just south of Emily Gray, great place to park in the shade. They are along the practice fields right on Melpomene. I don’t think anyone would bother you during school hours. You probably couldn’t park fifty cars there but I bet ten cars wouldn’t bother anyone. We are a pretty bike friendly community. And the trees are adjacent to the south lane of the bike path. You could use the new bike lanes to get from the school to Catalina Highway.

Is it five miles? I was only off by 250%, sorry. Do you remember back in the early 70’s they used to have an event called The Mt. Lemmon Hill Climb? It started at Wilmot and Speedway. The novice group only went to Molino Basin. I don’t remember where the experienced group finished. I rode it when I was in 14 or 15 to Molino Basin. Back before titanium and carbon fiber frames and pre bike paths. Back when the most common bike was a 36 lb. Schwinn Varsity.
Mark A. NIMBY

That’s funny. You are correct; NIMBY did get it all wrong. Molino Basin is on Mt Lemmon. Molina’s is a great place to eat lunch though. I typed “since” instead of “sense” too. Thanks for not pointing it out. Once you hit the submi button it’s too late.

There are some nice big mesquite trees just south of Emily Gray, great place to park in the shade. They are along the practice fields right on Melpomene. I don’t think anyone would bother you during school hours. You probably couldn’t park fifty cars there but I bet ten cars wouldn’t bother anyone. We are a pretty bike friendly community. And the trees are adjacent to the south lane of the bike path. You could use the new bike lanes to get from the school to Catalina Highway.

Is it five miles? I was only off by 250%, sorry. Do you remember back in the early 70’s they used to have an event called The Mt. Lemmon Hill Climb? It started at Wilmot and Speedway. The novice group only went to Molino Basin. I don’t remember where the experienced group finished. I rode it when I was in 14 or 15 to Molino Basin. Back before titanium and carbon fiber frames and pre bike paths. Back when the most common bike was a 36 lb. Schwinn Varsity.
Red Star

Apparently it is incumbent on cyclists to figure out a way for two-bit Old Pueblo slicks such as Mark Acosta to sell more houses and land on Mt. Lemmon. Never mind that Realtors ™ have the intellect, social conscience, planning horizon and attention span of a common housefly. Never mind that there is no coherent, rational planning for the urban park/real estate development (of the Realtor ™/County Supervisor playground) known as the Catalinas. Don’t get in their way.

In other words, cyclists, if you can figure out a way for Mark Acosta and sugar boy toy Raymond Carroll to make a buck off of you, you’re in!

But is it worth it to be smaller than Mark Acosta/Ray Carrolll?
Red Star

Apparently it is incumbent on cyclists to figure out a way for two-bit Old Pueblo slicks such as Mark Acosta to sell more houses and land on Mt. Lemmon. Never mind that Realtors ™ have the intellect, social conscience, planning horizon and attention span of a common housefly. Never mind that there is no coherent, rational planning for the urban park/real estate development (of the Realtor ™/County Supervisor playground) known as the Catalinas. Don’t get in their way.

In other words, cyclists, if you can figure out a way for Mark Acosta and sugar boy toy Raymond Carroll to make a buck off of you, you’re in!

But is it worth it to be smaller than Mark Acosta/Ray Carrolll?
Mark NIMBY

Okay, this dialog is getting personal and nasty. There is no reason to be inappropriate and begin name calling against others who have the right to speak their mind just as you do. This is supposed to be a discussion amongst
adults. The bottom line is that we need to respect everyone’s opionion on this situation. Please understand that this is not an attack specifically on the bicycle community of Tucson, it is simply the opinion of the residents of Catalina Madre and the surrounding neighborhoods to not want this area disturbed with any type of structure that invades the natural environment.
Mark NIMBY

Okay, this dialog is getting personal and nasty. There is no reason to be inappropriate and begin name calling against others who have the right to speak their mind just as you do. This is supposed to be a discussion amongst
adults. The bottom line is that we need to respect everyone’s opionion on this situation. Please understand that this is not an attack specifically on the bicycle community of Tucson, it is simply the opinion of the residents of Catalina Madre and the surrounding neighborhoods to not want this area disturbed with any type of structure that invades the natural environment.
Mark A. NIMBY

Red Star,
I have read your post a couple of times and I can’t seem to follow it. It takes a person with a great deal of character to personally attack someone else while hiding behind a screen name. I don’t know you. You seem to think that you know me. Pick up the phone and give me a call if you have some kind of problem with me. I am trying to sell you something? I was minding my own business before this whole situation landed in my lap.
If you have a problem with my point of view over the proposed site, tell me where I am wrong. I don’t get it, did your meds wear off or what is the deal.

Everyone seems to want to trash Ray Carroll around here. If there is a public official that you should be angry with it isn’t Ray Carroll. The bike community was done a disservice when they were led to believe that it was common practice for Pima County not to notify residents in a neighborhood of proposed major changes to that neighborhood. Matt Zoll is the guy that led you down that path. There is a saying in my line of work that caries forward to most things in life. “When in doubt, disclose”.
Mark A. NIMBY

Red Star,
I have read your post a couple of times and I can’t seem to follow it. It takes a person with a great deal of character to personally attack someone else while hiding behind a screen name. I don’t know you. You seem to think that you know me. Pick up the phone and give me a call if you have some kind of problem with me. I am trying to sell you something? I was minding my own business before this whole situation landed in my lap.
If you have a problem with my point of view over the proposed site, tell me where I am wrong. I don’t get it, did your meds wear off or what is the deal.

Everyone seems to want to trash Ray Carroll around here. If there is a public official that you should be angry with it isn’t Ray Carroll. The bike community was done a disservice when they were led to believe that it was common practice for Pima County not to notify residents in a neighborhood of proposed major changes to that neighborhood. Matt Zoll is the guy that led you down that path. There is a saying in my line of work that caries forward to most things in life. “When in doubt, disclose”.
Red Star

Right! hands off Ray Carroll! And thanks for the unwitting expose’ of how things are done in Pima County!

Are Realtors ™ and county supervisors a total blast or what?

And don’t mind the lack of disclosure as they so self-righteously post and whine about Red Star and Zoll…distraction game…whining like a little boy on a heavy Schwinn…

Seems Red Star has struck a nerve…
Red Star

Right! hands off Ray Carroll! And thanks for the unwitting expose’ of how things are done in Pima County!

Are Realtors ™ and county supervisors a total blast or what?

And don’t mind the lack of disclosure as they so self-righteously post and whine about Red Star and Zoll…distraction game…whining like a little boy on a heavy Schwinn…

Seems Red Star has struck a nerve…
Observer

I’ve been reading these posts and I am appalled by the behavior of Red Star (Doesn’t someone monitor these?). You wonder why these people are so angry….Look at how you treat them! Mark A. Nimby posted an apology for which Red Star slammed him and his profession. I have yet to hear what Red Star’s real name is or just what it is that he does for a living…besides ride his little Speedo bike. (How do you like it?)

Grow up and get a life!

Seems like Red Star IS a nerve…
Observer

I’ve been reading these posts and I am appalled by the behavior of Red Star (Doesn’t someone monitor these?). You wonder why these people are so angry….Look at how you treat them! Mark A. Nimby posted an apology for which Red Star slammed him and his profession. I have yet to hear what Red Star’s real name is or just what it is that he does for a living…besides ride his little Speedo bike. (How do you like it?)

Grow up and get a life!

Seems like Red Star IS a nerve…
Red Star

Observer,

Whatever is upsetting you, Red Star hopes you have achieved catharsis!

If you provide Red Star with your e-mail address, Red Star will first submit any future posts to you, yes, you Observer, to obtain your counsel. We’ll go from there…deal?

Please advise!

Thanks,

Red Star
Red Star

Observer,

Whatever is upsetting you, Red Star hopes you have achieved catharsis!

If you provide Red Star with your e-mail address, Red Star will first submit any future posts to you, yes, you Observer, to obtain your counsel. We’ll go from there…deal?

Please advise!

Thanks,

Red Star
Observer

Red Star,
You never respond to the subject of these posts, instead you launch a personal attack toward the person who writes anything that you do not agree with. I believe that the purpose of this board is to discuss topics, not attach posters.

You asked me to advise, so here it is: There are doctors out there who can (try to) help people like you. Perhaps you should see if you can get in to see one. You sound like such an unhappy person, maybe medication would help.

It is a shame that the bicycling community has someone like you representing them, as your immature, smart ass behavior does not do them well.

I will not be returning to this website because you have led me to conclude that it does not warrant my time or energy.

Good luck trying to get a community to agree with you. Your attitude and behavior needs a major adjustment if you hope to succeed.
Observer

Red Star,
You never respond to the subject of these posts, instead you launch a personal attack toward the person who writes anything that you do not agree with. I believe that the purpose of this board is to discuss topics, not attach posters.

You asked me to advise, so here it is: There are doctors out there who can (try to) help people like you. Perhaps you should see if you can get in to see one. You sound like such an unhappy person, maybe medication would help.

It is a shame that the bicycling community has someone like you representing them, as your immature, smart ass behavior does not do them well.

I will not be returning to this website because you have led me to conclude that it does not warrant my time or energy.

Good luck trying to get a community to agree with you. Your attitude and behavior needs a major adjustment if you hope to succeed.
Scott

I didn’t know Speedo made a bike – not sure I’d want to ride one if they did.

So how many homeowners = several? I’ve been assuming all along that all this indignant sound & fury is being generated by one (possibly two but more likely one) adjacent homeowners plus whatever otherwise unconcerned friends and family they could scare or browbeat into backing them up to give the appearance of greater opposition.

The solution is simple – if you want control over the public property in question then pool your resources and buy it. otherwise it’s not your property to control, it’s public property for the common public good. Putting in a flat parking area in no way interferes with the property’s function as a drainage way, in fact it enhances that function by offering fewer flow restrictions than already exist in its current state, so that argument is as much a red herring as all the safety and crime alarmism. And it certianly offers fewer flow restrictions than the surrounding houses – if you were truly as concerned about preserving the pristeen desert landscape as you pretend to be in your appeal above, then what the hell are you doing blading it away to build your house there? What about all the bobcat cubs *you* displaced, hypocrite?

This issue is no more complicated than a homeowner having come to think of a patch of public property as a publicly subsidized extension of his own property, and wanting to control it to the detriment of the public that owns it.
Scott

I didn’t know Speedo made a bike – not sure I’d want to ride one if they did.

So how many homeowners = several? I’ve been assuming all along that all this indignant sound & fury is being generated by one (possibly two but more likely one) adjacent homeowners plus whatever otherwise unconcerned friends and family they could scare or browbeat into backing them up to give the appearance of greater opposition.

The solution is simple – if you want control over the public property in question then pool your resources and buy it. otherwise it’s not your property to control, it’s public property for the common public good. Putting in a flat parking area in no way interferes with the property’s function as a drainage way, in fact it enhances that function by offering fewer flow restrictions than already exist in its current state, so that argument is as much a red herring as all the safety and crime alarmism. And it certianly offers fewer flow restrictions than the surrounding houses – if you were truly as concerned about preserving the pristeen desert landscape as you pretend to be in your appeal above, then what the hell are you doing blading it away to build your house there? What about all the bobcat cubs *you* displaced, hypocrite?

This issue is no more complicated than a homeowner having come to think of a patch of public property as a publicly subsidized extension of his own property, and wanting to control it to the detriment of the public that owns it.